tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1558595533686058562.post3334474008797471628..comments2024-03-25T02:31:25.905-07:00Comments on The Independent Wargames Group: No Fubar.Independentwargamesgrouphttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07019172667119107650noreply@blogger.comBlogger22125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1558595533686058562.post-24598829648778841382016-01-16T07:53:59.398-08:002016-01-16T07:53:59.398-08:00Thanks Jim for your views on an alternative system...Thanks Jim for your views on an alternative system. I must admit I enjoy the ammunition rules in Blucher by Sam Mustafa, which give you pause for thought and stop you blazing away ad infinitum. Similarly the rules dont use command ratings as such, but still give a very exciting game with plenty of doubt.As you say each to their own, and thats what makes our lives interesting.Independentwargamesgrouphttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07019172667119107650noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1558595533686058562.post-20590795804389060562016-01-14T23:40:04.174-08:002016-01-14T23:40:04.174-08:00I have the memory seared into my brain of some Emp...I have the memory seared into my brain of some Empire Napoleonic games where a Russian player spent the whole game doing nothing because I couldn't roll dice to activate his command. This greatly influences how I feel about the topic.<br /><br />I agree with Michael Matthews ( full disclosure: we wargame together several times a year) that you can generally count on the players to provide their own FUBAR and friction without any artificial rules to create that uncertainty.<br /><br />When I'm designing scenarios for my games, I try to match the players' personalities to their role in the game. If I know that Mr. Smith is risk averse and not very aggressive, then I probably do not want him fighting on the side that is likely to do the attacking; or in some cases, maybe I need an Ambrose Burnside type on the attacking team, so I might give Mr. Smith a command on the side that is likely to attack, so as to scramble things up a little bit. Or maybe Mr. jones is very aggressive so he would make a perfect Murat or Seydlitz leading the cavalry into battle.<br /><br />We are all, well, human so we so human things like make mistakes now and then or we misunderstand our orders. Let me give you a couple of examples. <br /><br />I was playing in an ACW game as commander of the Confederate army. Our rules had a limited ammo mechanism, but you could replenish your ammo by attaching the wagon to the unit for a turn. The army commander on each side controlled the ammo wagons. There were two different types of ammo wagons: small arms and artillery.<br /><br />So the Rebs are attacking and doing fairly well, but one of my forward commanders is running low on artillery rounds and sends a courier to me desperately asking for more ammo. OK, fair enough, thinks I. So I reach for the nearest wagon and send it in its merry way to my brigade commander. The wagon arrive in about two turns and my brigadier is now out of artillery munitions. He reaches for the wagon and exclaims,<br /><br />" hey, you sent me a wagon full of small arms ammo. I wanted artillery ammo!". That halted the game for a good 15 minutes while our sides were splitting in laughter. You could not recreate that scene with a rule.<br /><br />In another game, I knew that I had some timid players. They were both good wargamers, just not very aggressive . We were playing 1806 Prussians vs. French. The scenario called for the Prussians to be defending a line along a stone wall or some other obstacle. Their defensive line bristled with cannon. The French had to cross an open field to get them.<br /><br />What the French did not know is that of the ten or so Prussian cannon, they only had a total of four rounds for their entire group of artillery. They could have four different cannon fire once, or one cannon fire four times, etc, but once they had fired four cannon shots, they were out of artillery ammo for the rest of the game.<br /><br />Sure enough, the French players took one look at the Prussian defense and tip toed forward or tried to work around the flanks of the Prussian line so as to minimize the number of cannon that could zero in on them.<br /><br />Eventually, one of the,French players thought it odd that the Prussian artillery wasn't firing at them every turn."Maybe they don't have any ammo," he said. "Come on guys, let's move forward and find out." And they did and they routed the Prussian army out of the position.<br /><br />To each his own though. Whatever works for you is fine with me. It's just that 1) I don't want one of my players sitting around with nothing to do, 2) I want the players to win or lose based on their own tactics, and 3) I can always count on people to be human, I.e. Unpredictable .<br /><br />JimDer Alte Fritzhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01578422757511400566noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1558595533686058562.post-3276104824874748892016-01-13T09:16:37.349-08:002016-01-13T09:16:37.349-08:00Thanks Robbie looks like 15mm is out of the Window...Thanks Robbie looks like 15mm is out of the Window.Just as well,we would have had to Pawn our Whippets to Pay for them!!!! B Irvinghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16665625782242811049noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1558595533686058562.post-29401787114218941182016-01-13T01:39:37.759-08:002016-01-13T01:39:37.759-08:00Personally I would have opted for 15mm, especially...Personally I would have opted for 15mm, especially as what I have to sell is in that scale? But having seen the Pendragon 10mm ranges I would have gone for them. Best of luck with the new period.Independentwargamesgrouphttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07019172667119107650noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1558595533686058562.post-27167758812117763322016-01-12T15:15:36.382-08:002016-01-12T15:15:36.382-08:00Another vote for Blitzkrieg Commander.. My regular...Another vote for Blitzkrieg Commander.. My regular opponent and I use minifigs N scale..Steve-the-Wargamerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07077311120172727690noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1558595533686058562.post-79050296142988904732016-01-12T12:47:21.879-08:002016-01-12T12:47:21.879-08:00We will have to see I thought maybe 20mm however P...We will have to see I thought maybe 20mm however Paul and Dave have started the Ball rolling Orders placed with Perrys. B Irvinghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16665625782242811049noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1558595533686058562.post-85637866162380417962016-01-12T11:03:54.276-08:002016-01-12T11:03:54.276-08:00Evening Brian,
Although we started with FOW, it s...Evening Brian,<br /> Although we started with FOW, it soon became obvious that they are too clunky, however Blitzkrieg Commander work okay.<br /> 28MM? youre going to need a bigger table if you go that way.Independentwargamesgrouphttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07019172667119107650noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1558595533686058562.post-49543274821396964542016-01-12T07:52:38.077-08:002016-01-12T07:52:38.077-08:00Hi Robbie wondering what rules you use for WW2 as ...Hi Robbie wondering what rules you use for WW2 as we are looking to get into it next,28mm seems to be the favoured scale.I picked up some FOW rules on the cheap and all decided that they were not for us.B Irvinghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16665625782242811049noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1558595533686058562.post-88805767071871223692016-01-12T06:44:27.882-08:002016-01-12T06:44:27.882-08:00Afternoon John,
I could never argue with Charlies ...Afternoon John,<br />I could never argue with Charlies reasoning, he's never been wrong yet. But personally I dont mind commercial rules if I feel they reflect the period and the tactics of the time.<br />It helps if you find like minded people to wargame with.<br /> By the way, I think you would be very pleasantly surprised how some commercial rules provide a good game.Independentwargamesgrouphttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07019172667119107650noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1558595533686058562.post-37078421068069501572016-01-11T13:00:38.922-08:002016-01-11T13:00:38.922-08:00Hi Robbie,great debate!! I'd like to add my li...Hi Robbie,great debate!! I'd like to add my little bit if I may-an old friend of mine,who you may have heard of,called Charlie Wesencraft,once told me that rules should never,ever dictate what happens in a wargame,and that a wargame should be your wargames brain against your opponent's wargames brain,and as long as you follow correct tactics and you know the history and weapon capabilities of the period,then the superior battle plan you write should(one hell of a word that!) give you victory!-I have always followed his advice and have never used a commercial set of rules,because common sense and fair play should (that word again!) be paramount in all games.-I bet this causes some comments!!By the way,I found out last night what FUBAR means-such language!!william couttshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05366775487316870101noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1558595533686058562.post-59378044035859979262016-01-11T11:10:18.610-08:002016-01-11T11:10:18.610-08:00Michael,
I have never used the Picquet rules,and ...Michael, <br />I have never used the Picquet rules,and I dont think I like the sound of the mechanism you mentioned.I have used Blackpowder a lot, and there were certain things that needed amending as far as I was concerned. One was where a unit could move three times and then fire. This actually happened to me in a SYW game. We changed the rule after that,so that if a unit moved more than once, they could not fire.I have found multi player games add their own friction, as you say some players will interpret what they have been told to do in so many ways. However adding a personality to the general they represent really turns the knife.The main thing is you enjoy the game being played, and that the rules dont spoil the fun. Independentwargamesgrouphttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07019172667119107650noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1558595533686058562.post-8877567695644786442016-01-11T08:14:01.822-08:002016-01-11T08:14:01.822-08:00Maybe you will by the time I get my Sikhs on the t...Maybe you will by the time I get my Sikhs on the table......Colin Ashtonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11650235978313356607noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1558595533686058562.post-19001434270281241282016-01-11T00:09:32.394-08:002016-01-11T00:09:32.394-08:00Robbie - still happens - how many Napoleonic armie...Robbie - still happens - how many Napoleonic armies are there with an Old Guard contingent? :o)<br /><br />It's an interesting thread though... I wonder if in the end it doesn't just come down to whether you play equal points encounter games, or you prefer scenario's.. I lean towards the latter, and the skill is in then balancing the forces to still give an "equal" game..Steve-the-Wargamerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07077311120172727690noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1558595533686058562.post-39453521516062412362016-01-10T17:57:29.945-08:002016-01-10T17:57:29.945-08:00I enjoyed your well thought remarks. For me it de...I enjoyed your well thought remarks. For me it depends on the style of game. For a one-on-one experience I can understand the failed command rolls or "blunders." For multi-player games, assuming you don't allow silly levels of table-talk, the other players introduce that FUBAR you seek. Just yesterday at a one-day convention the game I ran was utterly different than the playtest and the result totally different. In large part because the player with the best troops chose not to move hardly at all (even those his side was the attacker.)<br /><br />The flip side is a Napoleonics game I witnessed using Picquet where you roll for pips and the high roller gets to use them. A French corps marched across the front of an Austrian one, redeployed on the flank, and rolled up the line because the Austrians never won the roll-off and had very limited reaction moves. Failing to move once I can see (if not enjoy) but just sitting there as the enemy moves in the open without any reaction? Or the BP game where the enemy got a triple move, crossed the field and fired without any defensive reaction? "No, no, it is only honorable to let them approach and have the first fire." <br /><br />So for now I prefer to let my fellow gamers create the "friction of battle" without an artificial method.<br /><br />Thanks for reading my lengthy comment.Michael Mathewshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10944993820634306675noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1558595533686058562.post-39513979055073571892016-01-10T10:58:19.981-08:002016-01-10T10:58:19.981-08:00I would be interested to see a special rule for th...I would be interested to see a special rule for the Generals who led the Sikh army? Independentwargamesgrouphttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07019172667119107650noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1558595533686058562.post-88868421990378591482016-01-10T10:57:18.772-08:002016-01-10T10:57:18.772-08:00Evening Steve,
Ah that old chestnut of national ch...Evening Steve,<br />Ah that old chestnut of national characteristics, God bless Quarrie. Honours of War have lists for each country, and to be fair they seem historically sound. Blucher also uses them, and again they are pretty sound, but in our early games in the 1970's and 1980's I saw some toe curling ideas. The classic was the Rifle Brigade, who ended up out doing Sharpe, before he was even discovered. God they were supermen, and there were lots of them.I learned though. Independentwargamesgrouphttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07019172667119107650noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1558595533686058562.post-47286907213891551852016-01-10T10:53:53.662-08:002016-01-10T10:53:53.662-08:00I think our time in the constabulary brought that ...I think our time in the constabulary brought that home in spades.Anyway hopefully you will experience this very soon.Independentwargamesgrouphttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07019172667119107650noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1558595533686058562.post-23991541363668794372016-01-10T10:52:36.818-08:002016-01-10T10:52:36.818-08:00Evening Ken,
I know the idea is not new, and the ...Evening Ken,<br /> I know the idea is not new, and the early pioneers of wargaming experimented with the concept, but it does give some edge to what you want to do. Sometimes its hard to accept the result,and I may lose a dice as a result,but it does add to the game. Independentwargamesgrouphttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07019172667119107650noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1558595533686058562.post-65029656031640712312016-01-10T03:41:10.063-08:002016-01-10T03:41:10.063-08:00In general I'm with you here- but with the pro...In general I'm with you here- but with the proviso that any SNAFU OR FUBAR is appropriate to the historical period. "Adding to the game" for its own sake is not to the point for me the "level playing field" does not exist in war- if it does the commanders need the sack . For myself I can't see the point of a game claiming historicity when "fairness" raises it ugly head as a matter of course.<br /> So given that it is the right Kind of FUBAR then thats fine by me. Big Andyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17235478427317774609noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1558595533686058562.post-92145975035425021502016-01-10T02:20:27.491-08:002016-01-10T02:20:27.491-08:00I'm with you as well but it's a broad chur...I'm with you as well but it's a broad church.. I often find the same discussions about national characteristics in rules (eg. +1 for British volley fire etc) Some people like a completely level playing field when they play their opponent (and I can understand that), some don't.. Steve-the-Wargamerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07077311120172727690noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1558595533686058562.post-36281118252514319322016-01-09T23:34:53.482-08:002016-01-09T23:34:53.482-08:00Robbie,
100% behind you on this. Anyone who has be...Robbie,<br />100% behind you on this. Anyone who has been in the armed forces or dare I say it even our careers in the Police know only too well that on occasions! Orders are not carried out as expected or are not carried out at all due to a variety of reasons. For me if you're playing a game where everything can be calculated it loses its edge.<br />Even the old 'On to Richmond' rules where each brigade had a card and both armies cards were shuffled into a pack and acted upon as each brigade card was drawn was quite effective at driving uncertainty as when you're brigade(s) would be activated.<br />Great looking battle by the way.Graham Chttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05229770388869939725noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1558595533686058562.post-50616946709312070122016-01-09T12:29:33.514-08:002016-01-09T12:29:33.514-08:00Totally agree Robbie, you can't beat a bit of ...Totally agree Robbie, you can't beat a bit of uncertainty in a game. It's the perfect antidote to the rules lawyer.<br /><br />I'm a big Fan of card activated rules like those of the toofatlardies, that and some random event cards give me my fix of uncertainty.<br /><br />I think it's players who are more keen to win a game rather than enjoy it who are against the command roll. I enjoy a good game where the turn of a card or roll of a command die can change the course of the game.<br /><br />Viva Randomness! <br />Regards, Ken <br />The Yarkshire Gamer Yarkshire Gamerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02187334713976374889noreply@blogger.com